Thanks for mentioning Brandolini’s Law Adam. I find the best way to deal with hard core magas is to not engage if possible or to use the Socratic method. Make them defend their beliefs. Ask them contradictory questions. Make them go research something on their own.
As Charlie Angus says, I paraphrase be the light that kicks open the door of darkness.
Yeah, there's one category that's especially pervasive and hard to counter - being asked to prove a false negative.
There's one encounter that's imprinted in my mind. When Biden won the 2020 election, some MAGAot exclaimed to me: "Prove he didn't steal it!"
Then the following discussion took place:
Me: "Okay. So I have to prove Biden didn't steal the election. But then you have to prove you're not a pedophile."
"Are you saying I'm a pedophile?"
"Yes," I said. "That's exactly what I'm saying. You're a pedophile."
"No, I'm not."
"Prove it."
"I never-"
"Never? Can you prove you never abused a child? Can you account for every second of every day of every year since you were born, what, fifty years ago? No. So, you're a pedophile."
"Ehh, yes. No. But... wait a minute. If you say I'm a pedophile, you have to prove I am. I don't have to prove I'm not."
"Really? But Biden has to prove he didn't steal the election? That what you're saying?"
"Yes! Because he stole the election!"
"Like I said - you're a pedophile. You're a child abuser, a disgusting piece of excrement."
"You cannot go around accusing people like that. That's-"
"Oh, but you can go around accusing Biden of stealing the Presidency? That what you're saying?"
"Yes! Because he stole the election!"
It was at that point in time I gave up on the MAGAots...
What a perfect example of the intellectual and moral blindness at play. Do you think he got it but didn't want to accept it or was he fully blind? Excellent use of Socratic method to engage him. The absence of self realization was not due to your method or effort that's for sure. Thanks for commenting.
When I asked my AI how to engage people with an adamant belief in lies demanding proof of a negative she went on to make suggestions that perfectly articulates Brandolini’s law to the point of circularity.
“When someone is deeply entrenched in a belief, particularly one based on misinformation or propaganda, it can be incredibly challenging to engage in a productive conversation. In these situations, simply presenting facts and logical arguments may not be enough to change their mind.
In these cases, it might be more effective to try to understand the underlying reasons for their belief and the emotional needs it fulfills. By empathizing with their perspective and finding common ground, you may be able to gradually shift their thinking over time. However, it's important to remember that change is often slow and incremental, and sometimes the best you can do is plant a seed of doubt that may eventually lead to a more open-minded perspective.”
I truly believe it's not moral blindness, but intellectual inability - the inability to follow simple logic combined with an absence of introspection. It appears to me it's not unlike the way color blindness lies at the root of a person unable to see colors.
And I'm amazed, time and again, at the similarity between Hippo Don's inability to follow simple logic and his followers.
And I'm also convinced that logic, or arguments, are never going to break Hippo Don's spell over the MAGAots. I don't know what will - I fear nothing will - but I do think reasoning with them is utterly pointless...
Absolutely amazes me how many people are simply unable to add two plus two here. You would think it would be a simple conclusion to reach, polio, measles, mumps, rubella, chicken pox were common BEFORE vaccines, they are no longer "common", hmm, wonder why? But nope, somehow, there are millions and millions of morons who are simply unable to reach this conclusion, I mean seriously, how fucking intellectually adept do you have to be to understand that ALL "medicines" come with risks? A child can understand this concept, LITERALLY all of them, acetaminophen, aspirin, every last one, show me a medication that doesn't pose a risk to someone, and I'll show you a placebo, and hell, I'm sure there are plenty of people who would have a psychosomatic reaction even to those.
Doctors prescribe/recommend medications because the benefits outweigh the risks, period, this is unequivocal, it isn't a point that can be argued. Go visit an old cemetery, all of those tiny headstones are children, go visit a modern cemetery, see the lack of tiny headstones? That's because children have been vaccinated against diseases that used to kill them, Christ, you'd think it was nuclear physics. I think the problem lies with the internet, today we have millions upon millions of mumbling imbeciles running around, who somehow believe that because they can look something up on the internet, "study" is no longer required, just look it up on the internet, and boom, instant Master's degree. I think maybe we should require some sort of media literacy test before people are given access to a search engine, people should be tested on their ability to separate fact from fiction, that would alleviate much of this. And somehow THIS message needs to be hammered home to every last person:
Your access to a search engine, does NOT make you a genius, "research" /== a five second Google search, it simply doesn't, there is a difference between knowing a thing, and understanding it.
Nailed it. Because this has been labeled the “Information Age,” it’s a no-brainer that the ability to process and fact check said information lags behind. If you’ve ever played strategy based war games that feature being capable of scouting and attacking a target from multiple sources, then you understand the concept of flooding and swarming. The actions by themselves don’t necessarily equate to much loss or damage. The goal is to overwhelm and overload opponents, and even potentially the server that the platform is played on.
Only pathway to sanity. However it enhances stovepiping. The problem is those who are brainwashed genuinely don't want real information. Pushing upside-down is not an invitation to correct them... it's just a statement to aggravate. Then of course there is deliberate use for political purposes.
Thanks for mentioning Brandolini’s Law Adam. I find the best way to deal with hard core magas is to not engage if possible or to use the Socratic method. Make them defend their beliefs. Ask them contradictory questions. Make them go research something on their own.
As Charlie Angus says, I paraphrase be the light that kicks open the door of darkness.
Yeah, there's one category that's especially pervasive and hard to counter - being asked to prove a false negative.
There's one encounter that's imprinted in my mind. When Biden won the 2020 election, some MAGAot exclaimed to me: "Prove he didn't steal it!"
Then the following discussion took place:
Me: "Okay. So I have to prove Biden didn't steal the election. But then you have to prove you're not a pedophile."
"Are you saying I'm a pedophile?"
"Yes," I said. "That's exactly what I'm saying. You're a pedophile."
"No, I'm not."
"Prove it."
"I never-"
"Never? Can you prove you never abused a child? Can you account for every second of every day of every year since you were born, what, fifty years ago? No. So, you're a pedophile."
"Ehh, yes. No. But... wait a minute. If you say I'm a pedophile, you have to prove I am. I don't have to prove I'm not."
"Really? But Biden has to prove he didn't steal the election? That what you're saying?"
"Yes! Because he stole the election!"
"Like I said - you're a pedophile. You're a child abuser, a disgusting piece of excrement."
"You cannot go around accusing people like that. That's-"
"Oh, but you can go around accusing Biden of stealing the Presidency? That what you're saying?"
"Yes! Because he stole the election!"
It was at that point in time I gave up on the MAGAots...
What a perfect example of the intellectual and moral blindness at play. Do you think he got it but didn't want to accept it or was he fully blind? Excellent use of Socratic method to engage him. The absence of self realization was not due to your method or effort that's for sure. Thanks for commenting.
When I asked my AI how to engage people with an adamant belief in lies demanding proof of a negative she went on to make suggestions that perfectly articulates Brandolini’s law to the point of circularity.
“When someone is deeply entrenched in a belief, particularly one based on misinformation or propaganda, it can be incredibly challenging to engage in a productive conversation. In these situations, simply presenting facts and logical arguments may not be enough to change their mind.
In these cases, it might be more effective to try to understand the underlying reasons for their belief and the emotional needs it fulfills. By empathizing with their perspective and finding common ground, you may be able to gradually shift their thinking over time. However, it's important to remember that change is often slow and incremental, and sometimes the best you can do is plant a seed of doubt that may eventually lead to a more open-minded perspective.”
Thnx!
I truly believe it's not moral blindness, but intellectual inability - the inability to follow simple logic combined with an absence of introspection. It appears to me it's not unlike the way color blindness lies at the root of a person unable to see colors.
And I'm amazed, time and again, at the similarity between Hippo Don's inability to follow simple logic and his followers.
And I'm also convinced that logic, or arguments, are never going to break Hippo Don's spell over the MAGAots. I don't know what will - I fear nothing will - but I do think reasoning with them is utterly pointless...
T E Lawrence
"An opinion can be argued with: a conviction is best shot".
Absolutely amazes me how many people are simply unable to add two plus two here. You would think it would be a simple conclusion to reach, polio, measles, mumps, rubella, chicken pox were common BEFORE vaccines, they are no longer "common", hmm, wonder why? But nope, somehow, there are millions and millions of morons who are simply unable to reach this conclusion, I mean seriously, how fucking intellectually adept do you have to be to understand that ALL "medicines" come with risks? A child can understand this concept, LITERALLY all of them, acetaminophen, aspirin, every last one, show me a medication that doesn't pose a risk to someone, and I'll show you a placebo, and hell, I'm sure there are plenty of people who would have a psychosomatic reaction even to those.
Doctors prescribe/recommend medications because the benefits outweigh the risks, period, this is unequivocal, it isn't a point that can be argued. Go visit an old cemetery, all of those tiny headstones are children, go visit a modern cemetery, see the lack of tiny headstones? That's because children have been vaccinated against diseases that used to kill them, Christ, you'd think it was nuclear physics. I think the problem lies with the internet, today we have millions upon millions of mumbling imbeciles running around, who somehow believe that because they can look something up on the internet, "study" is no longer required, just look it up on the internet, and boom, instant Master's degree. I think maybe we should require some sort of media literacy test before people are given access to a search engine, people should be tested on their ability to separate fact from fiction, that would alleviate much of this. And somehow THIS message needs to be hammered home to every last person:
Your access to a search engine, does NOT make you a genius, "research" /== a five second Google search, it simply doesn't, there is a difference between knowing a thing, and understanding it.
Nailed it. Because this has been labeled the “Information Age,” it’s a no-brainer that the ability to process and fact check said information lags behind. If you’ve ever played strategy based war games that feature being capable of scouting and attacking a target from multiple sources, then you understand the concept of flooding and swarming. The actions by themselves don’t necessarily equate to much loss or damage. The goal is to overwhelm and overload opponents, and even potentially the server that the platform is played on.
Interesting take.. thanks… what game do you recommend in this context?
It’s been a while since I was an active player, but mobile games like Mobile Strike, Vikings, and Rise of Kings are examples.
Debunking is over. Next phase already active: culling. Active self-defense is needed.
Only pathway to sanity. However it enhances stovepiping. The problem is those who are brainwashed genuinely don't want real information. Pushing upside-down is not an invitation to correct them... it's just a statement to aggravate. Then of course there is deliberate use for political purposes.
I was hoping the brainwashed would cull themselves with stuff like anti-vaxxing and COVID before the state of things reached the current moment.
Lemmings eventually do what they’re known for.